welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me George Galloway it's not every
day we have a former president of
Bolivia in London let alone on board the
Sputnik that we do have today is because
the current President Evo Morales has
asked him to take to the road and to
international public opinion to build
support for Bolivia's case in their
ongoing dispute with chili the Chilean
government until recently was involved
in a similar dispute with Argentina well
any case that evo morales wants to raise
certainly one to which I want to listen
and I hope you do too so it's a pleasure
to welcome his Excellency Carlos Mesa
former president of Bolivia your
excellency welcome to the Sputnik begin
please by telling us what is the dispute
between bolivia and chile how long has
this dispute been running and how
serious is it gracias por America soon
thank you for your invitation for me it
is a privilege to be here this process
started in eighteen seventy nine till a
NSA on you and I see in that year in
Chile invaded Bolivia Lisa in Bastion
unilateral this was due to new gillette
in the lateral aggression that ended up
in a world the Olivia didn't want after
which chili maritimo occupied completely
we see a access of Bolivia 400
kilometers of course 24 years later is
few memos we sign the treaty maybe until
cual and according to this treaty
Bolivia would see the whole all this
lost territory in exchange for a
economical compensation maintain speed
20 years later in 1923 CEO of Aleppo
chili my boss Bolivia because this
that was done many times between 1920
and 1983 seven times compromiso silly
pledge this access until a has not
complied del trabajo de minas ithil
quattro escape olivia and that's why
Bolivia has decided to take Sheila to
international court of justice we have
lodged a complaint against chili liqueur
and all we ask asking is that the court
believe estates that Chile has to
negotiate with Bolivia in order to give
them a sovereign access this beauty
comes from previous treaties so you are
landlocked because your neighbor stole
400 kilometers of your you're different
that's not a very neighborly thing to do
one can understand these things in the
19th century but in the 21st century it
doesn't seem much for you to ask for
this historic wrong to be righted
nosotros creemos como esta bien dis as
you have said hecho country we think
that something as horrible as this war
ASEAN and occupation really frosted it
really is abominable in those days it
was the winner take yo take it all and I
think this can be now repaired in the
21st century all we're asking is a
simple thing when we are lost we're not
asking them for the 400 kilometers of
coast we are simply asking for a
reasonable sovereign access to the coast
acceptable to Chile and acceptable to us
and I agree with you that we can in the
21st century we solve this problem this
long outstanding problem which is
actually going against integration the
continent the people who live there too
they regard themselves as Bolivian or
has chili transported people from its
Trey to yours impossible yeah muchos
anos a pasado it's been many years it's
been over a century seen this horrible
thing happened and today the whole of
the population that lives in that
originally bolivian territory is Chilean
and they consider themselves to be
Chilean however we do not learn to
generate any identity problem we do not
want to change people to change
nationalities what wins thing is that we
have the right to get some territory una
respuesta so we could get a reasonable
answer from Chile our claim is at the
moment transfer is not for us
territorial transfer and I simply our
claim is a lot simpler we simply use
want is the D a court of justice asks
Chile to negotiate with us and that
after negotiating we come to a common
Accord which is acceptable to most part
yes no olivia is not asking the court to
get a chunk of land all we are asking is
for the court to ask chilly to start
negotiating with Bolivia I think it's a
passing basic start for a negotiation
you mentioned the phrase sovereign
access explain please what you mean by
that presumably you do have accessed dog
commercial to the sea by the whim of the
Chilean authorities by sovereign access
do you mean a corridor that you would
effectively control and which could not
be blocked to you and could not be
charged for financially la pregunta es
muy pertinent a any fleas a very
important question as part of the treaty
of the 1904 treaty Bolivia
the right of free transit through some
Chilean port access su su vida now when
we talk about the sovereign access la
posibilidad de que Bolivia we are
implying the fact that Olivia could
control its external trade
you know pallavi exports natural gas if
we wanted to export gas over the oceans
we would need a plan to process it
nowadays we cannot do it without the
authorization of chili and without
asking chili for some land to build this
planet for that we need to comply with
Chilean law so no es lo mismo que si
Willie of course that's not the same as
if we had our own port if we had our
sovereign access then we would be able
to go forward with a lot of initiatives
like this following our needs and
following our strategies that is the
main difference between a free transit
that we have now in a sovereign axis
what level of tension has this dispute
produced in in relations between the two
countries kamusta companera no s ass you
will understand llevar adelante una
relazione fluence not very easy to have
a fluid relationships when we have you
know litigious process preseason we
actually do not have diplomatic
religious relations because Bolivia
considers that until we do not get a
sovereign access we cannot have a friend
relationship with chili however our
intention is not antagonistic Leticia
it's because in a way would ping in the
court of justice is just to solve these
issues specifically a living example
some years ago ego Chile and Peru had an
issue in The Hague that didn't impinge
on their diplomatic relations however
the Chilean government equivalent has a
very harsh attitude to towards Bolivia
and like that to bolted to Peru because
they also had a an issue with them well
the common denominator here is chili
because I have been a very small part of
Chile's dispute with Argentina I'm now
talking to you
chilis dispute with Bolivia and you
rightly draw attention to chilis dispute
with Peru what is it about Chile that
puts them always in the courts and
always in antagonism with their
neighbors because this has been the case
under military dictatorship under
democratic governments under democratic
governments of the centre-left and
democratic governments of the center
right so is it something Chilean about
this course you're going to stay p50 I
agree with you if we analyze a chili's
international relations they only have
three neighbors and we see that in the
last half a century they have had
problems with Peru with Argentina and
now with Bolivia so yeah we do think
there is something that doesn't quite
work in Chile's stance towards their
neighbors we think less it has an
attitude whereby they don't accept a
dialogue as a solution to comfort in a
way they are entrenched in a very proud
position and for us we are not that's
not a problem we just like to say one
thing the Chilean government says that
when Bolivia asks for a sovereign access
there that we are actually putting to
doubt a treaty
so doing they say that we are actually
putting into risk all the other treaties
we have always respected the treaty we
are not basing our claim in the 1904
treaty because we know that the
international order is based in border
treaties what we are asking is for Chile
to make good on their commitments sins
and so be able to negotiate the
sovereign axis what we have only a
minute left are you confident that you
can win this dispute internationally and
if not what can you do Bolivia not en un
plan B porque stop so he doesn't have a
plan because we are convinced that our
legal arguments are solid that we have a
very good peaceful approach and we are
asking the court to ask Chile to
negotiate with Bolivia so we can talk
about the sovereign axis so we are
optimistic that we are going to get
going along I think the court will
eventually clear itself competent to
decide that Chile hostile negotiate with
Bolivia well good luck in New York at
the United Nations and good luck in your
travels many of our viewers of sputnik
are big admirers of President Evo
Morales please convey to him our very
best fraternal greetings and president
Mesa thanks very much indeed for coming
on board the sputnik coming up after the
break gayatri will be back in her normal
place and he's top of the Pope's
formerly of the parish of Argentina now
Pope Francis in Rome and he's certainly
making everyone sit up and take notice
we're talking to his representative
father zambini next don't miss it
welcome back to Sputnik with me George
Galloway and me gayathri imagine if the
Pope was one of us to paraphrase Joan
Osborne well we finally got one
eschewing everything from red slippers
to luxury living and once prevailing
conservative orthodoxies the latest to
be felled in the thicket of political
orthodoxies was the Pope's
pronouncements on man-made environmental
degradation which marked him out from
the deniers and puts clear holy water
between the pontiff and the corporate
despoilers joining us now to discuss
this superstar Pope and his recent
homecoming to her his father
from the aforementioned parish of
Argentina father welcome let's start if
we can with the environmental question
which has caused a lot of trouble
particularly in the United States where
climate change denial is rife and even
sometimes amongst Catholics and it
certainly put the cat amongst the
pigeons you were a part of the working
group that produced the Pope's recent
pronouncement tell us please what the
Pope's findings were and why you think
they've proved so controversial and
thank it as well first I was not part of
the Pope's a advisors just to clarify a
but we were part of as a Catholic agency
here in the UK we were part of spreading
the good news of the pope's encyclical
there is a letter written to every
single person in the world not just to
Catholics and the reason is because we
inhabit this land this planet and the
problem of climate change is affecting
everyone the reasoning has caused a
controversy is because the Pope talks
against the ideology of the deniers the
ideology of the deniers of climate
change deniers is either based on the
god of mamoun which is the god of money
and the god of the free market or either
either the god of a political power so
in the in the name of money or in the
name of power you just ignored what's
happening around the world and why is
that because as a cattle guard as a
Catholic agency working in poor
countries we are witnessing that climate
change is already affecting the very
poor it's not that this will affect the
poor in 20 years x is already happening
a family an entire family in Sierra
Leone which we are working with kapil
pollutes less than any of us here in
london so this is the injustice you see
if climate change
I am polluting the world eh but I'm
still benefiting from this model of
development whereas people in Sierra
Leone in Nicaragua in bangladesh in the
philippines they are not contributing to
the climate change problem but they are
being affected the most so what the Pope
is raising the question the police not
necessarily as some politicians in the
US said anti-capitalist or runty
anything he's an anti geologist he
saying open our eyes for goodness sake
this is a problem not just at the poor
they're being affected the most but it's
a problem that affected all of us that
is affecting all of us in the last year
in the UK we had we have a great flood
but wasn't the end of the day because we
have resources to cope with effects of
climate change in California as well the
drugs in California terrible but they
have resources to cope but when this is
happening in the south the people they
just starve and die and the Pope is
calling us well let's open our eyes and
accept this reality in what we are
witnessing is what already scientists or
the best science that we have is
accepting the Intergovernmental Panel of
climate change alongside the Pontifical
Academy of Sciences the royal academy of
sciences and the majority of research
universities in the world they have
agreed that this problem is not just
caused by natural by natural causes if
it is caused by a human beings
activities particularly the
industrialization in the West so this is
why the ones who are in whose best
interest will be affected if we work
against I might change our racing
welders against the Pope is the Jesuses
vicar on earth and this is the
equivalent of Jesus going into the
temple and kicking
over the money lenders tables isn't it
the Pope has a duty to stand up for
justice and the situation you described
is the antithesis of justice whether you
want to call it anti-capitalism I prefer
to you might not it's certainly a clear
signal from the church that people come
first people come before money people
come before power now this brings me to
a wider discussion on the this
phenomenon this incredible Pope the top
of the Pope's as I put who has
re-energized a church that looked to be
on its backside frankly with scandal
after scandal and a leadership that
didn't seem to rise to the challenges is
it because he's Argentinian I ask you as
a fellow Argentinian or what is it that
special about Francis and yes what is
specialist he has him that he said a
person that is listening and learning
all the time and but because he's a
member of the hierarchy of the church
that is pretty much outstanding that a
leader any political leader economic
leader or church leader is in in an
ongoing process of learning and we
believe that we learn from what God
tells us through the Holy Spirit through
the people particularly through the poor
and this is what's special I remember he
once gave us a talk when I was a
seminarian and he said you're you please
you will never be poor because you will
always have shelter you Lessa food you
will always have work so you have to try
just
it's of the poor every single day and I
think the Pope was talking well then
what's the card enough when I said that
but he was talking to himself this is
what he tries to do to see the reality
through the eyes of the poor but that
because that makes a difference you
mentioned economics he's not against
economy but he's against Anna konam an
economic system that doesn't have people
on the center because now he's against a
conception of power that doesn't serve
but wants to control people and that's
why I'm saying he's against ideologist
and what makes it special is that also
another thing is that he he does what he
talks so he's he's very compelling and
consistent which is fabulous for a world
leader nowadays and we know that many
world leaders and you know it very well
they have to respond to the interest
that put them in a position of power
unfortunately well the Pope I feels free
about that because he has he doesn't
have to respond to any particular power
even within the church so he's free to
try to spread what we say the kingdom of
God or the kingdom of love and justice
in in the world and he spoke freely with
by being consistent also in the way he
leaves for example you know that he just
live in the palace of the particle know
he could but he prefers to live in a
guest house and actually it's very very
simple and small and so he he he loves
to be in touch with the people and to
and to talk to the people and to listen
so that's why from time to time he just
has lunch with the employees of a butt
chicken can imagine the faces of the
employees the first time he appeared
with his tray I said are you sitting
here yeah why not I'm the Pope so I
think that makes him very very special
it's a person who likes to be close to
the people and who likes to seal the
reality through the eyes of the poor
every day he works hard for that it's
not natural and I think it's not natural
for us and that's why he's calling the
politicians
the UN the politicians all around the
world and economic the leaders to try to
do the same do what you I mean do what
you do in a in a good way trying to
serve people and to serve all not just
not just your own interests since his
papacy he has returned recently returned
to the homeland a home continent rather
how do you revise that tour well the
true to Latin America is quite important
for Francis as a pope and as a person
and for the people there for Francis is
a pope because I think he has recovered
this sense of love and contact with
people I think it means to be close to
people and you can see from the photos
and videos how much he loves being in
contact with them particularly with the
ones who are considered a list of
society with indigenous people he was
drinking coca leaf again exactly and in
his latest encyclical ever to see he
talks about the importance of indigenous
people how can they contribute to the
world with the wisdom with their
solidarity and with a love for mother
earth in and for the people in Latin
America can you imagine that a pope
visit them and Latin American Pope the
first one in history and took not today
hierarchy but talks to them and talks
how important is the participation in
society high importance to work for
justice and for intergenerational
justice how important stored for the
care of our creation and how important
are the Bay contributions to our
globalization that shouldn't be a
globalization of indifference but a
globalization of solidarity and proper
wealth and that's why in the the visit
of Latin America is kind of preparing
the Pope's visit to the General Assembly
of the United Nations in next
we in September because they're the Pope
will talk up to the representatives or
nations but on behalf yes all the peeps
strengthened by god bless His Holiness
the Pope Francis thank you very much
father Santini thank you and now it's
your turn to tell us what you think
through the portals of social media
what's rattling Gayatri we asked what's
so hot about the superstar Pope as he
now takes on the fight to the climate
records Sam Thompson answers he's
upsetting a lot of vested interest is it
because he does not think he will be
around long or vice versa on a brighter
note a kilo ali says whatever it is but
Pontifex is by far the coolest handle
name on twitter it is and is definitely
the coolest as well as the hottest of
all the Pope's top of the Pope's and
it's all we've got for this day which
Alice means that's the end of the show
you can stay in touch with us on twitter
at RT underscore sputnik or like us on
Facebook sputnik on Russia today it's
goodbye from me Gayathri and from me
George Galloway it's been marvelous